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30 September 2012 @ 06:08 pm
The Angels Take Manhattan review/thoughts  
This was really full of plotholes.

[Spoiler (click to open)]

1) ... so, if "an image of an angel becomes an angel," then shouldn't the detective have been zapped back in time almost as soon as he stepped into the elevator with the poster of the Statue of Liberty? (Or gotten his neck broken/sand in his eye or something?) And since angels can turn other statues into angels, shouldn't every statue in NYC be an angel by this point?

2) FINALLY Moffat gives a reason the TARDIS can't land somewhere - time distortions. He should have done that ages ago.

3) So far my favorite part of this ep is the ad that "DAVID TENNANT RETURNS TO BBC AMERICA" in Spies of Warsaw

4) "Once we know what's coming, it's written in stone" -- ok, I'm sorry, I have problems with this. It's supposed to be only if you've lived through it. Otherwise, the Doctor, the knower of all history, would never be able to go anywhere or do anything, because he already knows history and how things end.

5) So the chained angel touches River ... and nothing happens. How do you "badly damage" an angel anyway? Wasn't the point of Blink supposed to be that you can't kill them or hurt them? And if they can only move when you're not looking at them, then how come the baby angel was able to blow out Rory's match when he was looking at it? That shouldn't have been able to happen, either. And now they can just do spatial displacement without temporal displacement?

6) So I did kinda like how it's becoming clear that Eleven's time with River is coming to an end. Although their timelines never seem to go back-to-back as originally stated. Honestly, to me this means that Moffat's time on DW is likely coming to a rapid end as well, which is good.

7) I thought regeneration energy was only supposed to last for ~15 hours after a regeneration. However, I thought that Time Lords can go into a trance and heal. So ... in order for there to be a dramatic moment, canon was trounced. As usual.

8) In a perverse way, Rory's death of old age must be almost comforting, because if time can no longer be rewritten to kill him any other way, then he can go play in traffic or w/e with no fear.

9) RIVER HAS A VORTEX MANIPULATOR, WHY NOT USE IT? SHEESH.

10) Everyone seems to keep taking their eyes off the angels, and turning their backs to them. AND BLINKING. Yet the angels don't move. Amy and Rory have this entire conversation with the Statue of Liberty!Angel standing right there, and they're not looking at it, and the damn thing doesn't move an inch. Eleven and River stand with their backs to it, and it STILL doesn't move.

11) How come people are crying at this? This episode is HAS NO INTERNAL LOGIC.

12) So he can't ever go to the 1930s? Or to 1930s New York? Because if it's just New York, then couldn't they just go to another city and meet up with Eleven there? Or wait a few years and meet him somewhere else.

13) What is this crud about "nobody knows" if the angel will send them back to the same time? That's such a lie. That's the only reason Ten and Martha were able to end up in 1960s London together, and that Billy Shipton was able to join them.

14) This stuff must run in the family:
Pond/Williams person: "don't travel alone."
The Doctor: "ok cool, travel with me!"
Pond/Williams person: "lol not so much"

This episode would have been much more emotional if it weren't so freaktastically annoying and had no internal logic. You don't need to stay true to 50 years of canon, I understand it can be complicated. But please, please try to stay true to the handful of episodes that YOU WROTE Moffat =P

 
 
 
lunawho: Only Bitches Blinklunawho on September 30th, 2012 10:27 pm (UTC)
I agree with you on all of these points. I wanted SO MUCH to love this episode because, contrary to popular myth, I never set out to hate on Moffat eps (I still think Blink is the second greatest episode ever written), but the man has officially lost it. I can understand (somewhat) ignoring things made canon in prior eras and what not, but the man can't seem to keep things canon that *he* wrote in previous episodes to be laws.

I mean, numerous times he's had the Doctor say that the past can be re-written and that the TARDIS can't be moved once he's gotten involved in events (which is why the Doctor had to jump through a time window to save Reinette.) But in other episodes, he's always completely ignoring his own rules. As much as "time can be re-written," whenever someone suggests using that idea to fix things, the retort is, "Oh no! Now it's a fixed point!" and the reasoning why it's fixed never really makes any sense. And with the TARDIS locking him in events, 50% of the time he has the Doctor moving the TARDIS to try to change things and then the other 50% the canon law stays a law (according to the Doctor.)

Just pick a canon and stick with it! That's what I spend half of my time yelling at the screen. Or, in the 2% of the time that the Doctor changes canon law, some horrible consequence should come with (a la Waters of Mars.)

I really wanted to be emotional about the Ponds leaving, but I was too distracted by the terrible plot writing to get worked up about it at all.

What happened to the Doctor Who that I remember?!
no matter how improbable: ponds with textcharlottetrips on September 30th, 2012 10:41 pm (UTC)
I cry at anything touching emotional quite honestly and it's why I'm seemingly a cold-harded biotch most of the time.

So despite the fact that I agree with all the plot canyons as above, I still had a sense of loss. I'm not even really trying to understand everything that happened, I just sat through it with complete suspended belief. I'm also not a really discerning viewer and can be loyal to a fault.

With all that said, I agree that this episode could've packed a more emotional punch. It was disappointing in how the plot was handled but Amy and Rory <3 and Matt Smith's emotional heartache was something that made it worth watching for me.

EDIT: Though I do hope Moffat is almost done with Who. I could stand to have someone else running it.

Edited at 2012-09-30 10:42 pm (UTC)
wheatear: the doctor is sonicwheatear on September 30th, 2012 10:41 pm (UTC)
Honestly, to me this means that Moffat's time on DW is likely coming to a rapid end as well, which is good.

Haha, I like the positivity that you take from this.

It's probably better not to think too much about the plot logic of this episode tbh.
Katie: it needs sayingkh1369 on September 30th, 2012 11:53 pm (UTC)
Haha, all of this. I especially agree with points 3 (I felt the same way a few weeks ago when I caught that trailer the first time) and 11 (I even do cry at stuff. But this episode? No. I cannot.)
fogsbluefogsblue on October 1st, 2012 12:16 am (UTC)
Plotholes abound! Also check that out --> http://stfu-moffat.tumblr.com/post/32592709395/facts-about-angels (lazy = no pretty link)

4) "Once we know what's coming, it's written in stone" -- ok, I'm sorry, I have problems with this. It's supposed to be only if you've lived through it. Otherwise, the Doctor, the knower of all history, would never be able to go anywhere or do anything, because he already knows history and how things end.

That annoys me. It's just a simple case of WTF Moffat? Written history is a no go, but breaking fixed points... no problem? Pffff!

6) So I did kinda like how it's becoming clear that Eleven's time with River is coming to an end. Although their timelines never seem to go back-to-back as originally stated. Honestly, to me this means that Moffat's time on DW is likely coming to a rapid end as well, which is good.

I'm considering praying to every god out there that this is true!

But seriously, so MANY plot holes and I still can't say there was any real emotional impact from their exit....

Overall, meh.

Eli-chan: Amy - *head desk*silverlunarstar on October 1st, 2012 12:26 am (UTC)
Just saw s7 a few minutes ago... I think my Amy icon says it all.

Basically, I agree with all your points. Moffat can't leave fast enough.
Katherine: Idris TARDISspicandspan89 on October 1st, 2012 03:07 am (UTC)
This just in... a Moffat ep with no internal logic! News at eleven.
Yeah the whole "time can be rewritten - except when it can't LOL" is very tiresome.

Also, River once made a freaking Dalek beg for mercy. And now she breaks HER wrist to free herself from an Angel? Why not just take a sledgehammer to the thing IDGI.
ilsiuxilsiux on October 1st, 2012 03:00 pm (UTC)
Unfff I agree so much with you ! you read my mind and put my thoughts on this page :D

It's mad, a huge BRONZE metal statute of liberty (which is not a fucking angel, but La Liberté! a freaking Roman goddess) is walking through the streets of NYC ! like why weren't people freaking out?????

Yes River has a time vortex manipulator, and she somehow will deliver the book to the Ponds, so they will see each other???? so my headcanon now is they go back to their own time, and just stop talking to Eleven because he has a moron writting his dialogues !!! Christ, couldn they just like, see you in London in a year ! Also, thank you very much angels, they left them a year before WWII ! with Rory at an eligible age for the ARMY

unff

I just wanted this episode to be good, I really did, but I did loved the fact that Amy and Rory love each other that much.

I have a question, do we Know when is the goodbye for River? it's soon, actually the only thing that made me kinda sad, was the "I'm a professor now" part. Actually I was more moved by River's dead in FotD, than now, and we had known her for two episodes! come on Moffat, something is not right.



Annissaannissag on October 1st, 2012 09:03 pm (UTC)
So far I've enjoyed S7 more than S5 and waaaaaay more than S6. That said, I would have been more affected by Amy's departure if I'd been able to connect to her on an emotional level. She never felt fully fleshed out and always seemed like a cardboard place holder. As it is, I merely shrugged when she got zapped.

Bring on the new companion!
Natalie: Doctor Who - Rose Tylerjaggedshards on October 2nd, 2012 04:10 am (UTC)
I agree and disagree with your points - for example, I agree that everyone took their eyes off of the Angels too much, and considering that there were that many Angels in the vicinity I wonder why the Doctor, River, Amy and Rory had a such an easy time escaping the hotel. But then I could be wrong.

I agree that the Statue of Liberty isn't actually made out of stone, but I still think the effect of having the Statue as an Angel is impressive enough to overlook this detail. I agree that the Weeping Angel with River scene was a little unbelieveable. I get the feeling that River's time with the Doctor is ending, but not before a certain amount of husband-wife/lovers interaction passes between them.

I can see that Moffat has messed with quite a few rules of Doctor Who, and many which were his own, which is disappointing. I like this episode as a whole better than the Asylum, but if I look carefully I easily get irritated at them both.

What I am still confused about is why the Doctor can never see the Ponds again, and why it's implied that he goes to see little Amelia Pond in the middle of his own timeline. I understand that the previous episodes leading up to Manhattan was of the Doctor visiting the Ponds after they'd gone, but I really hope its explained further. However from experience, I doubt it's going to happen.